http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to...x/6661775&lf=8
It's a bit long so I'll prephrase the questions I'm curious about:
(1) Would you like a 'no homosexuality' option in a game?
(2) Would you mind a *** NPC flirting with your PC?
(3) To what point do you feel a game should be developed eskewing content aimed at or conforming to minorities rather than majorities?
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To summarize, in the case of Dragon Age 2, BioWare neglected their main demographic: The Straight Male Gamer.
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Its ridiculous that I even have to use a term like Straight Male Gamer, when in the past I would only have to say fans, but it is as if when the designers were deciding on how to use their limited resources, instead of thinking "We have fans who loved Alistair and we have fans who thought Alistair was annoying. We have fans that thought Morrigan was great and we have fans that thought that she was a ****. And we have fans who liked the combat and we have fans who hated the combat but liked the story. How do we make make all these groups happy?" Instead, it is as if they went "We have straight males, straight females, gays and lesbians. How do we make all these groups happy?"
In every previous BioWare game, I always felt that almost every companion in the game was designed for the male gamer in mind. Every female love interest was always written as a male friend type support character. In Dragon Age 2, I felt like most of the companions were designed to appeal to other groups foremost, Anders and Fenris for gays and Aveline for women given the lack of strong women in games, and that for the straight male gamer, a secondary concern. It makes things very awkward when your male companions keep making passes at you. The fact that a "No Homosexuality" option, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point. I know there are some straight male gamers out there who did not mind it at and I respect that.
When I say BioWare neglected The Straight Male Gamer, I don't mean that they ignored male gamers. The romance options, Isabella and Merrill, were clearly designed for the straight male gamers in mind. Unfortunately, those choices are what one would call "exotic" choices. They appeal to a subset of male gamers and while its true you can't make a romance option everyone will love, with Isabella and Merrill it seems like they weren't even going for an option most males will like. And the fact is, they could have. They had the resources to add another romance option, but instead chose to implement a *** romance with Anders.
I'm certain that some will declare "That's only fair!" but lets be honest. I'll be generous and assume that 5% of all Dragon Age 2 players are actually homosexuals. I'll be even more generous and assume that the Anders romance was liked by every homosexual. Are you really telling me that you could not have written another straight romance that would have pleased more than 5% of your fans?
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David Gaider replied in the last thread stating, "There's a lot of assumption in there, not the least of which is certain amount of privilege (not to mention an assumption that all straight male gamers must like the same thing)". It's odd to me that David realized that not all straight male gamers like the same thing, yet thought it prudent to try to include a cast that would be liked by straight male gamers, straight female gamers, gays and lesbians with a development time of 18 months. I just hope that the next game BioWare will get its priorities right or spend more time making the game.|||I'm currently playing Dragon Age: Origins for the first time. I had to get Zevran friendly for him to teach me the Assassin specialization. He's almost a little too friendly now, but I simply shut him down by calling him buddy.
On the other hand, all of these in-game romances are creepy... *** or otherwise. I don't understand the appeal and obsession over it. I will say that these minority issues occasionally get over-emphasized, or act like being *** is somehow better. (that's more of an other media thing when it happens, tho, not games) I haven't played DA2 yet to see if the ... uh, gayness is more intrusive or not.
Spoiler
PS - Where's the dog love? Surely, someone's into that.
I kid.|||Did you see Bioware's writer's response to this post? It is pretty great. The posts are still up in case you want to check it out.My favorite part is where he says "You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want." So true.
Full text of the response spoilered below:
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To the OP: doing the same act repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. What you hope to achieve by posting the same thread over and over again I can't honestly say.
To some of the others on this thread: While an ignorant opinion politely expressed doesn't make it less ignorant, I will say that the behavior of some of you is far worse. Calling someone a "troll" who expressed his thoughts in an intelligent manner and acting like hooligans suggesting if you just throw enough dirt that eventually that person will either go away or the thread will get locked will earn you a ban. No matter the opinion, I think how it's expressed deserves the same in kind. If you can't do that, refrain.
To the issue: I've said it before and I'll say it again-- perhaps a bit more eloquently, since it's apparently of dire concern to some.
The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.
More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for "all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all *** fans". You don't. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.
And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.
The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.
Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again-- at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.
And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.
In a wall of text. Sorry about that. /images/forum/emoticons/smile.png
And I'm sorry if someone didn't get everything they wanted out of the romances-- as I always am. I wish we could do the ideal where there's something for every desire and opinion, but as usual we make do.
In any event, in response to your questions:
1- I don't care, but I can see why someone would want it; personally, I usually skip romances because I think they're weird. If it is easy enough to incorporate, they may as well, just to shut folks up. But, frankly, I think the fact that all this stuff if optional is more than enough.
2- No more than a straight one.
3- I don't think this is content "conforming to minorities" - I think it's just a progressive move in our society that is, overall, becoming more progressive. And I don't see a single reason why minorities should be left out. Think about it in terms of race and then try to argue against equality: People would lose their minds on you if you tried to say "We shouldn't have a black hero," "There should be an option for white-only romances," or "I don't want any Asian characters flirting with my PC!"
I'm using "you" in the general, plural sense, not meaning you, specifically.
What really blows me away is that people freak out about a same-sex relationship in game, but have no qualms about making their character female. And, to take it a step further, even romancing a male NPC as a female. Uh, whaaaaa??|||Quote:
What really blows me away is that people freak out about a same-sex relationship in game, but have no qualms about making their character female. And, to take it a step further, even romancing a male NPC as a female. Uh, whaaaaa??
Good point. Ask GW guys why they keep making female characters and you usually get flamed. It never made sense in my head, but whatever.
While I'm at it, since we agree that they're all kinda creepy, I have another issue with them. Despite dialogue being exchanged and "getting to know" the NPC, the games always portray the ultimate level of relationship to be sex. It's always struck me as shallow, because it seems structured to be talk->gift->talk->sex=win, as if that's the top. I know it's probably unrealistic to expect a popular game to handle a relationship in a healthy manner, though, since many players would prefer to just see the exciting parts.
To be honest, the video game character that has made the most realistic connection for me was Alyx from Half-Life 2. She's brilliant, capable, good-looking and has a great sense of humor. (i.e., well-written) On top of that, the voice acting really sells her believability. And guess what? Her clothes stay on the whole time.
|||The only point to the 'romances' is wish fulfillment for the emotionally starved. They add nothing to the story or gameplay.Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way I see it. Bioware could just drop the whole thing (which would also put an end to the *** romance "problem") and it would likely improve the game.|||I agree that it's pretty silly that sex is always the "win" in a relationship. I know plenty of folks wherein sex was the start of their relationship, not the end. But, I guess they aren't going to throw marriage or anything in there, but it is silly nonetheless.
I enjoy friendships in games, I really do. In DA:O, the "bromance" with Alistair was one of my favorites. I just loved the friendship between him and the male PC; really liked Alistair as a character, too. In BG / BG2, I was a big fan of Ajantis, Garrick, Branwen, Nalia, Viconia (in 2), but I never wanted to romance any of them.
My favorite parts of these games are that the characters aren't flat. I like that you can build an emotional connect to the characters, just like if you're reading a good book or watching a movie. But I don't want to be in a relationship with any of them...|||Quote:
I'm currently playing Dragon Age: Origins for the first time. I had to get Zevran friendly for him to teach me the Assassin specialization. He's almost a little too friendly now, but I simply shut him down by calling him buddy.
On the other hand, all of these in-game romances are creepy... *** or otherwise. I don't understand the appeal and obsession over it. I will say that these minority issues occasionally get over-emphasized, or act like being *** is somehow better. (that's more of an other media thing when it happens, tho, not games) I haven't played DA2 yet to see if the ... uh, gayness is more intrusive or not.
Spoiler
PS - Where's the dog love? Surely, someone's into that.
I kid.Taking Zevran to the "Special Tavern" in Denerim can get you a threesome with Isabela. Having Lelianna in Love with you at the time can get you a foursome even. So yeah, it's kinda creepy how far they took it.
Isabela is also one of the female romance NPC's in DA2, the second one they talk about seems to be the shy/curious/innocent Elf girl. So your romance options are either a pirate slut or, well, rapebait. I can see how those are somewhat dissappointing and "niche" compared to the options in DAO...
Then again, there was the controversy about the lesbian alien sex in Mass Effect as well.
I don't mind the conversations and relationship thing with NPC's though I don't think it's handled too well in DA. KotOR/KotOR2 handled it pretty well, improving character relations provided you with better background info on them, the ability to turn them into a Jedi/Sith (with visual effects in kotor 2), and could provide you with certain abilities (reparing T3 gave you stat boosts, getting along with some women too well could break Handmaiden's heart so she would give you the cold shoulder every time after, ...).|||Quote:
(1) Would you like a 'no homosexuality' option in a game?
(2) Would you mind a *** NPC flirting with your PC?
(3) To what point do you feel a game should be developed eskewing content aimed at or conforming to minorities rather than majorities?
(1) Don't need or care for one.
(2) Like in RL, I'd give the thanks but no thanks polite response. That's it.
(3) Majority should learn something about society, and it's that it takes all kinds to make a world. I'm happy to celebrate diversity.
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Taking Zevran to the "Special Tavern" in Denerim can get you a threesome with Isabela. Having Lelianna in Love with you at the time can get you a foursome even. So yeah, it's kinda creepy how far they took it.
Wow. Really?
Then again, most movies have a romance line that's often not even necessary. Plenty of action movies feature sex. If the story is an important feature of the game, then romance may play a big part too... that's fine.
Personally though, I don't tend to care about story, I'd rather spend more time in combat.|||Quote:
Wow. Really?
Yup.
I kind of liked that DA had slutty characters. It's this dark medieval setting: People didn't have the same sensibilities that we do now.
Alternatively, in ME2, you've got the sex scene with Jack, which is actually quite beautiful. One of the meanest characters in the game finally lets down her guard. She's got a real twisted backstory that explains her reservations and her attitude. But with patience and caring, she caves. Of course, there's the option to just use her for sex like everyone else.|||Quote:
Yup.
You know, that actually bothered me more, the "sex scenes" are either direct cuts or when it's not, they're shown to still be wearing their underwear. I get that they didn't want to get an AO rating (not like that'd matter much since it's M rated anyway), but they could have at least make it seem like all their clothing comes off by choosing the angles and stuff, movies do it all the time to imply sex scenes while you never actually see any nudity. Instead you get a model sitting on another model, both clearly in their undewear and hoverhands.
They should have either used direct cuts for all of them, do it right by making it seem they had no cloths on or just ignore the rating and show it all. Instead, they do it wrong and "whoops foursome is too complicated to animate, direct cut".
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